Inside the Black Women Stitch with Lisa Woolfork

Lyric Kinard (00:01.677) Hello friends, I am so excited today to introduce you to somebody who I've respected and admired and who I consider a friend. Lisa Wolfirk is here with us. She is the founder of Black Women's Stitch, which is an organization I greatly admire and is doing. a much needed and beautiful work out here in the world, serving people with love and strength and commitment. Lisa, why don't you introduce yourself and let's start by you telling us how you got into the medium and the craft that you are working in and then we'll move through the journey. Lisa Woolfork (00:45.71) Thank so much. Hey friends. Hey, it's Lisa from Black Women Stitch and the Stitch Please podcast. And I started, I am a sixth generation sewist. That means that my mother sewed, my grandmother sewed, my grandmother's grandmother sewed. And when I tell you, I wanted nothing to do with it at all. And then I grew up and went to graduate school and needed a hobby. Lisa Woolfork (01:13.314) because writing a dissertation was long and kind of painful for me. And so I needed to have something that felt like I could start and finish. And so that's what sewing became. It gave me this opportunity to take this inner piece of fabric and turn it into a duvet cover, you know? So that is how I started and I totally fell in love with it. And I have been sewing ever since. So the... Lyric Kinard (01:37.293) Sewing has saved so many people's sanity. It's exactly, it's better than therapy by far. Lisa Woolfork (01:41.002) It is, it is. They, that's what they say. Now I would never say that for me therapy. They, I have a lot of friends that say, so sewing is my therapy. And I'm like, no ma'am. Therapy is my therapy. Sewing is therapeutic. Sewing is absolutely therapeutic. It can really like, you know, bring you back to yourself. Like this dress I'm wearing right now. I am so proud of this doggone little old dress. It was a, it's really, it is. Lyric Kinard (01:47.181) Maybe I need both. Lyric Kinard (01:54.061) Hahaha There you go, perfect. Lisa Woolfork (02:10.135) three pieces. It is a front, a back and a sleeve. That's it. And a little neckband. But when I tell you, of course, I also added pockets, there's pockets. I feel so satisfied and just, think the British word is chuffed. C-H-U-F-F. I love that word chuffed. And it just, that's how I feel. I feel like I look cute and I look cute in something I made and it helped me break through my, I had lost my sojo and you know, just having a new project that was like easy and simple could really help just, you know, kickstart things. And it really, really did. And so right now I made another one just like it last night, but in a different fabric. And I think it's that example of how the power of the stitch and the stitch can mean lots of different things. I think for me and for us, I think we think about it with sewing and quilting, but there's also, you know, embroidery, tatting, cross stitch. counted cross stitch. There's so many crochet, knitting, tatting, all that textile arts, all the fiber arts, the world, everybody is Lyric Kinard (03:11.937) Yeah, all the textile works and every tradition around the world, every culture has some sort of phenomenal traditional textile work. Lisa Woolfork (03:24.019) Exactly. And I think it's, you know, I think the thing I like to remind people of is that the needle is older than the wheel. The needle is older than the wheel. And if we think about the role that the wheel played in the development of humankind, none of that would have started unless they had some clothes to put on. Lyric Kinard (03:47.149) You couldn't go anywhere where it's colder than where you are if you can't keep yourself warm and you have to have a needle for that. Lisa Woolfork (03:53.665) Exactly. And so, like, they found needles that are 60,000 years old. You know? And so, it's something fundamentally human about sewing that I think is worth reminding folks of, even in today's age where everything feels so mechanized, you know? Or fast fashion will tell you that you need to have 72 t-shirts, you know, a month or something. that there's something to be said for the transformative properties of taking a needle and thread, a needle and yarn, a crochet hook and yarn in your hands, and creating something that has never existed before. Lyric Kinard (04:42.561) That is exactly what it is about creatives and about makers. This ability to bring something into existence, to create order from chaos, to create beauty from something that wasn't there before that is vital to our existence. Lyric Kinard (05:04.629) Honestly, right now in the world, a lot of our colleagues, a lot of our teachers, we look at the world going up in flames and think, why are we even doing this? It's not important. It doesn't matter. But it does. I think it's even more right. Right. It absolutely does. Lisa Woolfork It matters more. It matters more. You know, this is something that Toni Morrison talked about, about when—you know, dealing with, you know, times such as these. And she says this is when artists go to work, you know, that there are people out there who need the artwork that you might create. They need to see it. They need to see people— And especially, again, I am a fan of AI in some contexts, but I am a skeptical user, because my concern is that it is starting to override the human and starting to—either from military applications, where they're trying to allow AI to decide what villages to strike or whatever, to— AI recording artists and musicians, you know? Lyric Kinard (06:17.812) Mm-hmm, right, or AI art. Part of what's going on right now, right, is that people don't know what is human and what is real. And that thing where you create something for real that you can see with your hands and that you made, that is real. And the thing about teachers, about you and about the people that are listening is that it's not just us going to work making the work. We are exponentially spreading that. Lyric Kinard (06:54.474) that connection, that commitment. And you know if the world goes up in flames and if all the fabric shops close, we still have our stashes and we're gonna need to learn how to hand sew because you won't be able to go to Walmart and buy a t-shirt anymore, right? Lisa Woolfork (07:08.065) That's right. That's right. And you'll also like, I personally have a sewing machine that doesn't require electricity. It's a hand crank. So listen, we can be on your apocalypse teams. So when people start to build their apocalypse teams, they're going to want, you know, a Lyric and a Lisa on their team because we can sew, you know, and we can, yep, we can make up tents. You know, like my sewing machine is very heavy duty. it's in a little suitcase. Lyric Kinard (07:13.302) Me too. Lyric Kinard (07:17.354) There you go. Lyric Kinard (07:25.748) I've actually had this conversation before. Lisa Woolfork (07:35.213) It's a bit heavy, but it's an excellent machine. And it can last into the duration. And we can make things and make things happen. But I think for me, I started with a commitment that was already rooted in a certain degree of a vision of social justice. I came to Black Women's Stitch in a rather roundabout way. Lyric Kinard (07:40.32) We can make things happen. Lyric Kinard (07:53.772) Tell us about it. Lyric Kinard (08:00.192) First, tell us what it is. Lisa Woolfork (08:02.528) So Black Women Stitch, as I describe it, is the sewing group where Black Lives Matter. It is a digital community where people connect and convene online. We have a robust Patreon section where I do a lot of behind the scenes. And most of the podcast episodes that I have are recorded in Riverside, like we're recording right now, which includes a video component, but I only release the audio component publicly. I do have the video component for the Patreon folks who would like to see. thank you. Thank you, thank you. and in addition, one of our major projects is the Stitch Please podcast. And that is a podcast that centers and celebrates black women, girls, and femmes in sewing. And we have had very close to 300 episodes. I was going every week. Lyric Kinard (08:33.556) We'll put that link by the way people, we'll put it in the show notes. Lyric Kinard (08:53.1) Wow Lisa Woolfork (08:55.702) for five years from 2019 in September to January 2025. And then I had my producer mentor was like, you can't produce every week. We've got to change this up. And then I have another good friend who was a project manager and she was like, Lisa, if you're gonna try to do all these other things, you need to, something has to give. And it was a very difficult decision to go every other week. Lyric Kinard (09:02.156) That's a lot. Lyric Kinard (09:18.956) Something's gotta go. Lisa Woolfork (09:24.82) I'm like, no, no, just clone me, clone me. I can do it. Make another one of me. That's just like me. What exactly? Exactly. I'm sure they're going to have that figured out by next week. Right. So, so I decided to go every, every other week, but we still have a mass, like very many episodes. And that's something I really am grateful for because we have had so many conversations with so many different types of folks. Lyric Kinard (09:28.108) Get out CRISPR technology, take some Lisa. Lisa Woolfork (09:53.501) in different areas. We've talked to museum curators, fashion design professors. I talked with a fashion student from the Rhode Island School of Design in her first year at fashion school. And then I talked with her again four years later as she was preparing for New York and Paris Fashion Week. So it's been really great to have that kind of longevity, been able to interview Bisa Butler for our 200th episode. Lyric Kinard (10:11.414) Peace. Lyric Kinard (10:19.212) Beautiful. Lisa Woolfork (10:20.32) which was fantastic and she was a really great time. We had a lot of fun and know, Smithsonian curators, brand new sewists, home sewists, people that love to sew for their family or their kids. Just so many types of folks involved in creating with needle and thread, creating in the fiber arts, making clothes, designing them, know, housewares, all sorts of things. And it... Lyric Kinard (10:44.748) Right. What a beautiful encyclopedia and repository of human history and stories that, you know, history often gets told by the victor, right? And the everyday lives are what we miss, but they are the ones that... Lyric Kinard (11:11.542) will teach us what the world is really like. So you were building this vital kind of resource and something for the future. Lisa Woolfork (11:14.826) Yes. Yes. Lisa Woolfork (11:26.72) Yes, that is what I like to think. I like to think that this archive, that someone who wants to learn to sew today or someone who wants to learn to sew in a year from now will have so many points of entry. They can talk about what it means to make a bra. They can listen to someone talk about their first quilt. They can listen to why you might want to go to a sewing retreat. They can learn more about the fabric district of Los Angeles. There's all of these different things that are available. you know, choosing your first machine, how to sit at the machine properly so you can sew and not be sore. Like all of these other things that we might not think of and that beginners will not think of because they're just starting. So I like to think that what we're doing at the Stitch Place podcast is inviting new sewists to have someone sit next to them in the sewing space. Lyric Kinard (12:13.878) because they don't know. Lyric Kinard (12:24.012) That's a beautiful way to think of a podcast. That's just like we're trying to hear all of our beautiful colleagues who are thinking or in the middle of building online businesses, sit next to us and see all the different ways that can... Lisa Woolfork (12:24.222) someone who— Lisa Woolfork (12:36.554) Yes. Lyric Kinard (12:40.992) that can happen. One of the things that I think is vital about what you've created and probably the necessary reason why and the thing that other people if we're not going to be just a podcaster, Did I just that's such a horrible word that is not applicable at all. If people are going to do right if people are going to do things outside of podcasting and that's one of your main things. Lisa Woolfork (12:59.628) I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. No offense taken. Lyric Kinard (13:10.926) we can still learn because what has been created as a result of what your podcast does is community. It's connecting people through this phenomenal technology that we are so blessed to have access to, right? So tell us about the underlying reason Lyric Kinard (13:39.208) we skipped straight from I'm a long it's in my DNA so as to look what I've got now let's look back at a little bit of the middle of the journey so how did you go from I just love to sew and it makes me happy and it's therapeutic I'm gonna use I'm gonna say that from now on you've taught me something important too Lisa Woolfork (13:59.498) Yes it is, yes it is. Lyric Kinard (14:05.279) what you've got right now. Why did that happen? How did it happen? Was it planned? Or did it organically grow and evolve? Everything evolves, but you know what I mean, right? Tell us your journey. Lisa Woolfork (14:16.415) Yes. So it was not planned. And in some ways I did everything I could not to plan it. I was already busy. You know, I have a very busy day job. I have two small kids when we, you know, they're not small anymore, but at the time they were. I had, when I graduated from and got my PhD, I had done some internships with a quilter in Wisconsin and she was really very kind. I had taken sewing classes at local dealerships and had even attended a retreat, which I had never done before, a quilt retreat. Now, the community that I was embroiled with in Madison, Wisconsin, the quilting community, were all white, older ladies. Madison, Wisconsin was actually a pretty fun place to be because that's where they recorded Sewing with Nancy. Sewing with Nancy was recorded at a, it was recorded right there in Madison, Wisconsin at the public TV station. And then Nancy Zieman had a warehouse in a town called, I think it was Janesville, I think it was. Lyric Kinard (15:14.499) cool. That was when my show was way back when. Lisa Woolfork (15:32.992) And I remember Riley, who is now a whole adult, was a baby in a stroller and we're walking around the warehouse sale and Nancy Zieman like walks over and says, hi. And I'm like, hi, Nancy Zieman. And then I'm like, Riley, it's Nancy Zieman. know, you know, but it was, it was, was before cell phones and before you could take pictures of everything. But it was really, that was where I got like a formal education in sewing because sewing came to me when I needed it. it came to me when I was in graduate school, writing a dissertation, doing this research, and I just wanted a hobby that would let me get out of my own head and into my hands. And sewing became that. And so I had been accustomed to being like the only black person at these events. And then when I moved from Wisconsin to Charlottesville, I ended up having similar experiences. I work at a predominantly white institution. The Quilt Guild there was also predominantly white. I also worked with other, like there were other communities that were, because this thing about retreats, like once you start to like, like them, you look for them wherever you can go. So it's like, I don't care. It's like, yeah, I'll go to this town 70 minutes away, or I'll go to that one in Richmond, or I'll go to this one. And it became like, You know, one of the things where I just got accustomed to being the only one and it was fine. It was fine, but it was fine. It was fine. It was fine ish. It was fine ish. it was fine enough for me to do it for many, many years. and you know, Lyric Kinard (17:08.228) Ish. Lisa Woolfork (17:20.307) You just brush off microaggressions, you brush off awkwardness. never, I didn't feel like, well, I brushed off awkwardness. I never felt like I wanted to go in and teach anybody about my life or experiences. We would have some like fun jokey times and stuff after we developed, you know, some trust. But for me, it was definitely usually the case where I just felt a little bit removed. Lyric Kinard (17:49.087) Let's talk about this for a moment because as a white woman in these environments, you know, ever since I started quilting, that's how it's been, right? You know, almost all white women, I don't see and I don't experience. Lisa Woolfork (18:09.865) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (18:10.067) the things you do. wasn't until I opened myself up to learning and really made dear friends outside of my race that, and it takes a while to build that trust and I wasn't trying to do that, I mean, But us white women have no clue what you go through in these environments. We don't see it, you know, and Lyric Kinard (18:39.731) We don't mean harm, by and large. That doesn't mean that we don't do harm. And I had to get over the very uncomfortable when somebody told me I did something racist. I'm like, wait, I'm not racist. Well, you know, that's our first defensive thing. I didn't mean to do anything. But when you Lyric Kinard (19:00.051) understand the difference between intent and impact. I mean, if I stepped on somebody's toe and they told me it hurt, I would move and I would say, sorry, right? I would understand, I would learn, I would change. And that's what, it's a learned behavior and experience that we white women have to get over our discomfort to hear and understand. Lyric Kinard (19:26.737) If you feel comfortable, would you be willing to just tell us one or two things that you experienced that are uncomfortable that we in the quilt world wouldn't understand? Like I've attended black women's sewing circles and there are beautiful, beautiful groups and the white men, well, why don't they come to ours? And you know, after you learn it's like, well, they have good reasons. They're not welcome. Lisa Woolfork (19:49.009) Yeah, it's like, it would be things like on one particular incident was there was like this lady, she was one of the people that was over the retreat. And she was like, well, I remember one time I was driving in, in Georgia, and maybe outside of Atlanta. And then this white man, we had to pull over on the side of the road because something wrong with our car. And then a white man came over and helped us and said, I'm going to stand here with you ladies because I just want you all to be safe. And we were really grateful for that. And so that might be a great story for this person about how they felt like protected or whatever. But for me hearing it, it's like you needed a white man. You were in danger because you were two white ladies just stopped by the side of the road and protecting you from who? And for me, it felt like they were protecting them from black people. And so, to me, that felt—you know, or they would often say things like, after almost every horrible, like, situation, why didn't they just comply with the police? I just don't understand why you don't listen. The same person who said, I don't know why you don't comply, would also brag about, I just told the cop to give me my ticket and get out of my face. So— It was a lot of different mental—it's all—it's a lot of accumulations of things. And what I found that I had to do—I think one of the ones that was most difficult was there was a group that wanted to talk about what they were calling at the time, oriental—and I'm doing quotes here—fabrics. And as part of that— Lyric Kinard (21:20.542) You bend over and I talk back. Lisa Woolfork (21:47.305) they had these different props, including like a, a, a pointy hat, like what's known as like a coolie hat. they had like all of these other, like, these different fortune cookies that they had made. And like you put us to read a fortune. And this one lady, this one lady, this one lady was like trying to speak in a, an accent. Lyric Kinard (22:08.49) American thing. Lisa Woolfork (22:16.81) as part of the presentation, and then this one woman, and this was what shocked me beyond shock. She put her hands on both sides of her face, right, next to her eyes, and she pulled her eyes back, pulled the sides of her eyes back. And I could not believe that I was watching someone who was close to my own mother's age behave that way. I... Lyric Kinard (22:26.449) no, no, don't tell me she did. Lisa Woolfork (22:45.716) I was so stunned, but after that, I just did not go back. And it wasn't because I'm Asian. It was because it was a terrible thing to do. You know, it was—it was very much caricaturing. It was very much just something I bet they would not have done if there had been an Asian-descended person there. Lyric Kinard (22:59.498) Right, know, character, I, caricaturing. Lisa Woolfork (23:15.538) I would hope they would not have done any of that. But the fact that they did it at all is it's, feels, think clueless could be a word, but it also could just be careless. Like I don't care. I don't care. I think this is fun. I think this is going to be good. I don't imagine it being offensive, at least not offensive to anyone that I'm doing it in front of, you know, Lisa Woolfork (23:45.052) And so I think part of the challenge is this notion of innocence. You know, this idea that, it was a mistake or I didn't know, or I'm so clueless, et cetera. You have to teach me. no, no. That is so hard. Yeah. And I think that when you're in friendship, when you're in relation with folks, you're absolutely willing to have conversations. Heart to heart conversations is how people build trust. Lyric Kinard (24:02.108) It's, it's... Lisa Woolfork (24:14.129) and how you build friendship. But to expect somehow that I am meant to just go into the world and relate to every white person I encounter that way is ridiculous. It's—yeah, I'm not doing it. And so, what happened to me was I was organizing in the summer of 2017 here in Charlottesville, Virginia, which had an incursion of white supremacist violence. We had a Klan—we had— Lyric Kinard (24:24.682) It's exhausting. Lisa Woolfork (24:43.803) a white supremacist torch rally in May, we had a smaller Confederate rally in June, we had a Klan rally in July, and then in August we had the largest white supremacist gathering in, like, modern history. And so, there was Nazis, there was all of the different folks that you might have seen from January 6th, there was different militia groups, they had batons and— torches and shields and baseball helmets and all this kind of stuff and it was brawls in the street etc etc all because we were going to take our city voted to take down their Civil War participation trophy And Charlottesville has a couple of those and so they came to allegedly protest that but what they ended up doing was brawling in the streets and being really racist and The thing that many people might remember is on August 11th at the University of Virginia, which is a historic university. It's very old. It's been around since like 1819. So it's a pretty storied institution. Thomas Jefferson. That's right. That's exactly right. not Sally Hemings wasn't on this campus. Sally Hemings was at Monticello. yes. But listen, UVA and Monticello look the same. Lyric Kinard (25:58.172) This is the home of Thomas Jefferson people, you know, and Sally Hemings. No, not the area, Charlotte'sville, sorry. They do. Lisa Woolfork (26:11.889) They look the same, absolutely. So, I remember that white supremacists marched down the central lawn, the central campus, and then they convened at the Jefferson statue at the front of the university. And there, they attacked students and community members who had, you know, stood there to confront them, right? Because they wanted to take a stand to say, hey, we don't accept this in our community. You don't get to come here and shout. anti-Semitic slogans and, you know, with fire and threaten people. Like, that's not something that we as a community want to tolerate. And that's why the students and community members were assembled there. They were attacked. People threw torches on them. One person who was actually a librarian ended up in the hospital with a stroke after being hit and attacked. And I was across the street at a church. They were having this huge prayer meeting. And I was also doing an interview with Cornel West about the rise of fascism and the need to confront it. And someone ran in and said, hey, the Klan is outside. We—you know, just stay here until we get some more news. And so then we left the building by the side. We didn't know what had happened until later. And that just set up a really bad weekend, because after the white supremacists had marched through—marched, you know, through the park in brawls and fights, a national emergency—a state of emergency was declared, and the white supremacists had to leave, and the community members, got to stay because we lived there. And so, that was when, as we were marching through the downtown area, a white supremacist drove his car through— the crowd of counter protesters and murdered Heather higher and injured 20 people. And I was standing there at the intersection for that. And it was a horrific scene, you know, chaos, just awful. And after that, I just felt like I needed, I felt like I needed a break. I had been really exhausted. We had woken up screaming for weeks. It was just, Lyric Kinard (28:21.417) Right. Lisa Woolfork (28:32.867) difficult time. So I had already planned to go to a quilt retreat. And I can say that I was a little hesitant about going. I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know what was going to happen. But when I got there, things just seemed a little off. Though people were like, hey, how are you doing? I heard that you were there. My church is praying for you. We're so sorry. I was like, yes, it was terrible. It was, was, it wasn't a good time, you know, et cetera. I didn't come to kind of talk to them about this experience. You this was not the community that I would be unburdening myself with. Instead, I was working on some quilt blocks. I had lots of different quilt blocks that I was making, and I ended up getting them finished. I was really excited about—I just focused on that. I focused, focused, focused. After that event was over and we were packing up, I remember saying goodbye to the organizer, like, just waving and saying goodbye. And she just stared at me and didn't say a word. And so was like, huh, that's rude. Okay, whatever. Lyric Kinard (29:11.475) Good girl. Lisa Woolfork (29:28.677) And then I get home and about a month later, about a month later, there is a envelope, just a slim envelope in the mailbox and I take it out. And when I look inside, it is the check that I have written for the next year's event. This was, there was an event that was held in September and then it was going to be another event in March. And the check that I had written for the March event was returned to me. And so, Lyric Kinard (29:57.674) explanation, no anything else. Lisa Woolfork (29:59.154) There was no letter, no note, nothing. So my dumb self says, huh, I wonder if this event has been canceled. Let me call the person I know and ask if maybe she got her checks in back. No, she hadn't. And that's when she explained to me, she said, well, I don't, I think you just broke the rule. And I was like, what rule? And she said, the rule was that Charlottesville was not to be discussed and you discussed it. And so I said, well, huh, that's. That's just, that sounds kind of racist. And she was like, no, no, I don't think she's prejudiced. I think that you just broke the rule. That's all. So the rule that it was interesting because I, did, I did remember her saying that she, not to me, the organizer never spoke to me the entire time. One of the friends said, well, this person has said that she doesn't want to hear about Charlottesville at all. And I was like, well, should I just go home? I, again, people were asking me. Lyric Kinard (30:34.438) A rule that you didn't know about? Lisa Woolfork (30:56.745) I was not, I, I did not do that. I wanted to get away and people were asking me how I was and giving care to me, which I thought was actually kind of nice. I thought that was just like just genuine interest, curiosity. People asked a few questions and Lyric Kinard (30:59.411) You didn't stand up in for the room and say, everybody, this is what happened. Lisa Woolfork (31:25.723) I got on with my life, you know, and continued to, you know, have—you participate in the event. I did not realize that answering questions that people asked counted as talking. And also, if so, that's a stupid rule, and I don't want to be here anymore. It's dumb. So, at the end of the day, I had been expelled from this group. And when I tell you, Lyric, I—for the first time, I did not cry a tear when that white supremacist drove his car through this crowd and could have killed me. I had not cried since. I had not thought about it in a way that made me upset. Angry, yes, but not crying. I think for the first time since all of those things had happened, all of those things throughout the entire summer between the Confederates and the Klan and then the Torches, I did not shed a single tear until I learned that I had been kicked out of that quilt group. And I was so hurt. I was so hurt. I was so sad. was like, I've known these folks for like over 10 years. Like what is happening? You know? And then after Lyric Kinard (32:50.503) Yeah, who are you? How did I not know you were this person? Lisa Woolfork (32:54.088) But it felt, I felt sad. I felt like I had lost something. and then I felt embarrassed. I felt embarrassed and I felt ashamed. I felt embarrassed because I asked myself, who did they think I was all this time? Had I been presenting a version of myself that was not my true self? Why would they not think I would want to be involved in something like that? Why would they not think I would stand up for the rights of my people and my children? Why would they not think that? Who did they think I was all this time? And then I felt embarrassed. And then I started to feel a bit ashamed. I was like, I have been giving up a lot. in order to participate in these events. And it never mattered until it did. And that's when I decided I would never again audition my humanity in exchange for doing something I loved. Lyric Kinard (34:09.961) Let's stop for a moment and think about how this was a moment when you already knew what your values were, but you in that group perhaps weren't living them out loud, and how if we don't understand what our values are, and if we hide them. Lisa Woolfork (34:21.957) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Lyric Kinard (34:41.075) then we can end up presenting ourselves and our business and doing a disservice to the people that we are loving and serving, right? If we wear a mask, if we don't, right, if we don't understand what our values are and understand how to operate in alignment with them. Lisa Woolfork (34:52.196) Yes. Yes, the mask, that's, yes. Lyric Kinard (35:04.401) in our everyday lives, but especially as a teacher, especially as a business. So what did that experience of realizing you didn't put the mask on on purpose? Lisa Woolfork (35:08.742) Yes. Yes. Lisa Woolfork (35:16.244) No, not—absolutely not. But I think it definitely comes from being a black person who is used to working in predominantly white environments. And—exactly, like, there's certain things, like, there might be—someone might say something, but then I don't want to say anything because I don't want to rock the vibe, or I don't want to be bothered, or I don't want to be distracted from my own good time, or— Lyric Kinard (35:18.921) All right. Lyric Kinard (35:27.943) Yeah, you just present a way that is acceptable there. Lyric Kinard (35:42.798) Or it's not your job. Lisa Woolfork (35:44.392) Or, I'm on vacation, I don't want to think about this, you know? So, I do think that you're absolutely right that knowing your values and being able to stand on those as someone who is authorizing a project, driving a business, is absolutely necessary. And I think that of all of the different consequences of this experience was that it really renewed my commitment. to articulating my values out loud and from a distance. And so after that painful rejection, and this is another thing that makes me feel a bit ashamed, it's like if they had not kicked me out lyric, I would probably still be sitting there. And I would not have all of the amazing joy and happiness and creativity and love and life affirming and culturally responsive, organically, happily black stuff that I have right now. Lyric Kinard (36:53.926) You have this beautiful, vibrant presence and community that is, I can't even find a word to describe how supportive and how important and how... vital it is for the people you serve. We are bumping up against our time, but we have so much more to talk about. Let's really quickly talk about... Lyric Kinard (37:30.066) building a business or starting at this very beginning of a plan of what you want to do and how finding out what your values, finding out what you really want to do because your values are about Lyric Kinard (37:51.305) how you want to serve and the legacy you want to leave and the effect, the effect you want to have on the world. sometimes, sometimes things are really painful and sometimes living your values out loud can cost you something. understanding your values compared to the cost. have you, how have you chosen Lyric Kinard (38:20.326) to put those on the scale next to each other and choose which things are important enough to you to give up something else for. Lisa Woolfork (38:29.893) I think that's beautiful question. What I try to do is to move in such a way that my values are always my values, and that there should be nothing about me working with or in solidarity with another community that's going to compromise my values. My values are—and something that we discuss or that we try to prioritize is about creating an archive of black— creativity, of building a library of resources, of amplifying black businesses, of documenting these historic, cultural and generational crafts, you know, and talking about how important and valuable they are. Like, these are what the values are. And along with those include, of course, things about, you know, the importance of Black history, because I feel like we are making Black history as we create the podcast. And it would take—it would—it would—when you say give up, I think if there was someone who did not want to work with us because we specialize in and celebrate Black creatives, then that's their loss. Lyric Kinard (39:34.545) Absolutely. Lisa Woolfork (39:54.778) I am not going to feel badly about someone who doesn't want to work with us because they don't want to be seen as helping black people. I—that is no loss to me. The folks who do not align with my values are no loss to me. And that, think, is a great message for everyone as we start to kind of build our business. You're not trying to build a business to serve everybody in the whole world. Lisa Woolfork (40:25.125) You are building a business to serve a specific community that has a specific need. And there are so many riches within that. Financial, sure, but also communal, social, know, like intellectual. There's lots of benefits in building trust and solidarity with folks. And so I like to, or would like to practice. working with those who love, care, and support what I'm doing, rather than haters. I don't have time for haters. I hardly have time to deal with the people that love me, let alone the people that hate me. Lyric Kinard (41:02.888) What were you saying about cloning yourself? Lisa Woolfork (41:07.075) Exactly, exactly. I have a separate lower-level clone for my haters to talk to. Lyric Kinard (41:11.336) So one of the things here is that white women especially are not, at least in women's worlds, we don't often have to experience the choice of having to give up something in order to align with our values, right? I've been part of a... Lyric Kinard (41:37.936) art curatorial group that, you know, we supported immigrants. It was a controversial exhibit and some of the, we were blacklisted by people, you know, so people called people who had hired us and said, don't, you know, you have to cancel your contracts because of these people. And this was a thing that... Lyric Kinard (42:02.587) Many people did not experience before. And I am in a completely privileged place where that would not make me lose my house. Right? But I think we are at a point in history and a point in time that you are people, black people have always lived in. Here we are. Lisa Woolfork (42:04.794) Yes. Lisa Woolfork (42:11.14) Right, right, that's right. Lisa Woolfork (42:23.361) It's like, welcome aboard, everybody. Here we are at Oppression 101. We've been here for many hundreds of years, but you guys are just joining us. So have a seat. It's really going to suck for a while. Lyric Kinard (42:32.975) Yeah, thanks for welcoming us in. But we have to, we have to know, gladly stepping aboard, my friend, because we need to be able to live with ourselves and in alignment with our values because the minute we're not, the minute we're putting on any kind of mask or trying to... Lyric Kinard (42:58.801) keep the peace or not rock the boat, we're giving up pieces of ourselves, right? So, know, us new to the party, it's time. It is so time for us to learn this. Lisa Woolfork (43:06.49) Yes. Yes. Yes. Lisa Woolfork (43:13.658) And you're giving up pieces—you're losing pieces of yourself. Yes, you're giving up pieces of yourself, but you are also endorsing and solidifying the forces arrayed against you. Lyric Kinard (43:25.773) Exactly. Silence favors the oppressor every single time. Lisa Woolfork (43:28.966) But you know what else I'd love—this is a quote from a beloved friend, and she would say, sometimes liberation means disappointing other people. Lyric Kinard (43:40.603) Yeah, it does. Lisa Woolfork (43:42.904) And what would you rather be? Free or liked? Lyric Kinard (43:47.8) Exactly, exactly. And at this point, it behooves us to think not only for ourselves what we want to leave, but the consequences of being silent for our people. Lyric Kinard (44:06.865) for the next generations, we should be much more afraid of that than afraid of rocking the boat now. Lisa, we're going to put a lot of notes in this description and I am determined to have you back because we just scratched the surface. We didn't actually get into... Lisa Woolfork (44:09.253) Yes. Lisa Woolfork (44:15.589) Yes. Lyric Kinard (44:29.017) your whole system, your whole ecosphere, your whole community and how important it is and how it actually operates and what your plans for it are. There's so much more that I want to pull out and lay on this beautiful cornucopia platter for all of our people to just. Lisa Woolfork (44:42.661) Yes. Lyric Kinard (44:53.689) It's so delicious. It's so nourishing what you're sharing with us. So let's plan to speak again very soon. Until then, where can people find you, Lisa? Lisa Woolfork (45:01.061) Yes. Lisa Woolfork (45:08.866) Excellent. Thank you so much again, Lyric, and thank you so much to your audience for listening to me and for supporting this episode. You can find Black Women's Stitch on the socials. We're on Instagram and Facebook, as well as TikTok and LinkedIn. You can also, if you are so inclined to support our work, you can do that at the Black Women's Stitch Patreon. And that's something we are really excited about, that we really do value our community. And it is a wonderful way to connect with other creatives and to support our work. And you can listen to the Stitch Please podcast, which has over 299 episodes, wherever you get your podcast. And that includes Apple Podcasts, Audible, and we even are in Alexa skills. So we have an Alexa or an Echo and you say, play the Stitch Please podcast, it'll play it. Lyric Kinard (45:58.094) God. Lyric Kinard (46:02.297) Nice. Well, we can find you and listen and your voice is beautiful to listen to. So of course, who wouldn't want to? My friends, make sure you go and listen and support. I will be doing the same. This is beautiful stories, fascinating, interesting and important history. Lisa, before you go, what is the last thing you made? I think you already answered the question. Lisa Woolfork (46:27.622) The last thing I made was a dress exactly like this in fabric that I bought from South Africa in July. So I went to several different fabric shops and this is like a neoprene styled knit fabric and I got it in Cape Town and now I just finished that dress yesterday because I fell in love with it and it's a simple sew and that's the last thing I made. Lyric Kinard (46:32.282) Right. Lyric Kinard (46:46.414) interesting. Lyric Kinard (46:55.981) sweet, you have it next time you put it on, we want a picture and hopefully we'll get it in here before the podcast episode. Lisa, my friend, I love you. Thank you so much for being with us. Lisa Woolfork (46:59.984) Yes, yes, absolutely, yes, I would love that. Thank you so much. Love you too. Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk again soon. Thank you for all that you are doing to help us put our best foot forward on camera to make sure we're set up well and have confidence. there's a lot to, there's so much to learn. And I think what you are offering is really important. And I say this as somebody who like kind of taught herself how to podcast and took a lot of classes and watched a lot of tutorials. to have someone who can say, set up your lighting this way. This is what a key light does. Try this camera angle. Like someone who has done it and been there and can simplify it for you. And also, I think you talk about like working with OBS and all of these other things like. Lyric Kinard (47:53.915) Yeah, well, and mostly at the Academy, we talk about keeping it as simple and efficient and doable as humanly possible because the more complex, you get complicated later, my friend, right now, you just make it so you can actually do the thing. That's it. Lyric Kinard (48:14.363) The Academy for Virtual Teaching, you can find a beautiful community, can find short and long classes to help you show up your authentic and amazing self to serve and love your people. So my friends, keep creating, keep creating community, keep. teaching that beautiful, peaceful, joyful, therapeutic skill that you can share with the people around you. You make the world beautiful enough to live with. We'll see you next time.