Turning Art Into Teaching Income — MJ Kinman on quilts, patterns, books, and online classes

Lyric Kinard (00:00.357) Hello friends, I can't wait to introduce you to somebody who I admire and adore is so much fun. I love her art. I love the way she has structured her business. MJ Kinman, tell us who you are and tell us what your business is. MJ Kinman (00:17.774) Hi Lyric, it's so good to be with you. I'm thrilled to have gotten the invitation to spend some time just chatting with you. How often do we get to do that, right? I know, I know. Well, most people know me as the person who makes the big giant gem quilts. I've been doing that for... Lyric Kinard (00:25.345) Not often enough for sure. MJ Kinman (00:35.63) 30 years now. We can talk about where it started, all of that, and where it's now and where it's going. I'm not quite sure, but we'll talk about that. I love what I do. About 11 years ago, my heart was just in just a state of... unease basically. I was working as a corporate IT project manager and you know what when you think it's okay to make people cry in meetings it's never okay to make people cry. Lyric Kinard (01:13.765) no! MJ Kinman (01:16.022) And so I realized my soul had left the building and so I needed to as well. And at that time I was thinking more and more, I wonder if I could do something with the diamonds. For the last 20 years before that, people were saying, you've got to do something with the diamonds. But I'm like, I'm a social worker slash IT project manager, blah, blah. What do I know about this? And once that idea got stuck in my brain, it's almost as though it just wouldn't let go. It just warmed into my heart, warmed into my brain, and finally, it's almost as though my heart was saying, out and get out now. Scariest thing I've ever done, because in my life, when you don't have a job, disaster happens. That's what happened to my family growing up, and... You know, we're a two income family. What happens when we have one income? But my husband, I know I'm so blessed in that I've got this wonderful partner who said, I'll carry the water for a while. You do you, babe. You know, just just go for it. So that was about 10 years ago. And it's been quite an adventure ever since. So not only am I making the gem quilts, but after some time with a wonderful coach named Desiree, I started I decided that, yeah, maybe I'll make some patterns so people can do this, too. in a more streamlined way. And I think I want to teach. And can I tell you something? The most joyful thing about this whole adventure is that I love to teach. Who knew? No, no, In fact, my whole, my whole schtick now, my whole... Lyric Kinard (02:39.365) And you're not making anybody cry. MJ Kinman (02:47.874) goal drive, I use the word schtick irreverently, it's deep in my soul, is to choose joy. That's what my gems and joy trunk show is all about. I'm a worrier, I'm a fear monger, that's not the right word. I am a fearer. Lyric Kinard (02:50.756) Yeah. Lyric Kinard (02:55.343) Right. Lyric Kinard (03:04.889) You have anxiety. MJ Kinman (03:06.082) I have anxiety, exactly. And so I'm a world-class worrier. And so when I talk about choosing joy, I'm talking to myself. I'm talking to the person in here because I need it more than anybody. So it's really kind of a practice that allows me to talk about what's important to me and to help people understand how important it is to choose joy and choose yourself. Lyric Kinard (03:16.612) as we do. Lyric Kinard (03:30.853) All right, within the container of, we're making a quilt that looks like a giant diamond. Now, you said something that caught my attention. Before you started your business, you worked with a coach. Most people just do it. We just muddle along and we start and we figure it out. Why did you feel the need to start with a coach? MJ Kinman (03:46.232) day. Lyric Kinard (04:01.006) And how did that, how do you think it would have been different if you didn't start with a coach? MJ Kinman (04:07.694) I probably wouldn't be here. I would have given up and said, it's just me, I'm not smart enough to do this. This is so hard. don't know, am I doing it right? Am I doing it wrong? Am I making a fool out of myself? I'm just not gonna try. Keep in mind, I quit my job in 2014 and I started working with a coach in 2016. So yeah, I kind of feel parted around for a while. I'm just wondering how to do this, what to do. I'm a project manager, right? I'm an administrator. Lyric Kinard (04:09.541) Hmm. Lyric Kinard (04:28.325) Hmm. Lyric Kinard (04:35.833) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (04:37.728) from A to Z how I'm going to do something before I dive in. And Desiree was like, was the woman who said, no you don't. And again, this has found its way into my trunk show as well. You just have to say yes and step into your joy. And it's almost as though, I know I'm getting woo-woo here, but that's okay. Once you step into your joy and say yes, Lyric Kinard (04:55.618) All right. MJ Kinman (04:59.906) then I truly believe it's as though the universe says, finally now I can work with you, right? Instead of battling the universe saying, I can't do it, it's like, just shut up, MJ, and just do it. And I guess Desiree gave me, one, she gave me confidence, two, she gave me tools and she gave me a few contacts and... Lyric Kinard (05:04.739) right? Lyric Kinard (05:18.533) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (05:21.58) I kind of did the rest. I'm very lucky with my administration background and my IT project manager background and a little bit of IT stuff that I felt comfortable with social media. I felt comfortable with the tech mostly. mean, nobody's really comfortable with the tech all the time. Lyric Kinard (05:37.721) It's changing all the time. you you get comfortable with being uncomfortable and just deal with it. MJ Kinman (05:43.778) Yeah, yeah. I remember a time working with my coach. was probably about this time this year, about this time of year. And it was maybe about eight or nine years ago. We got on the phone and I just burst into tears. I just burst into tears. And she's like, what's going on? And I just saw me and I'm I'm so scared. What if they don't like me? What if they don't like my patterns? What if I make a fool of myself? And you know, I have probably seasonal affective disorder anyway. And she was like, okay, let's breathe. And so she just let me through a half hour breathing exercises. and it was better. So you know what I'm saying? Coaching goes from everything from, you know, giving you information to being there for you when you're about ready to jump off a cliff or that kind of thing. So. Lyric Kinard (06:35.375) Right? There is something that is so different doing, a dream and then doing it in community. And I find this so surprising and lovely that you're sharing this because anybody who comes to you in a lecture or a course is like, that is one confident gregarious woman. and she knows what she's doing and she just, you know, no questions asked. That's how you absolutely come across. So nobody would ever know that you had this imposter syndrome, this fear, this am I good enough or not? When of course people from the outside will look and say, damn right, you're good enough. There is no problem with this. You know, you just need to get over yourself and go for it. MJ Kinman (07:20.462) Yeah. MJ Kinman (07:26.798) Hmm. MJ Kinman (07:32.462) And finally, after about 12 years from hearing that from other people and from my husband, who is just my biggest cheerleader, I'm finally learning to let the fear go. I'm finally learning to let the fear go. 2025 was hard for a lot of us. And I feel like going into 2026, we've shed. mean, 2025 was the year of the snake, right? And I feel like I've shed a lot of things and fear is one of them. I'm still working on it, but fear is one of them. Lyric Kinard (07:46.703) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (08:02.341) Well, the thing is you do the thing whether you're afraid or not. You just do it. This is one of my coaches was one of most helpful things because we learn these things through experience. Your brain, its main priority is to keep you safe. And that's what fear is. Your brain is telling you there's danger here, right? But MJ Kinman (08:05.558) Exactly. MJ Kinman (08:23.758) Yes. Lyric Kinard (08:29.509) being able to take that fear kind of outside of you and look at it rationally and say, thank you, you're trying to keep me safe, but you're not being really helpful right now. Can you step aside until I actually need you? And then. MJ Kinman (08:42.574) I called outside to me, Roberta. I'm like, Roberta, that's not helpful right now. Lyric Kinard (08:49.561) Just go have a cup of tea over there. I'll do my thing over here. MJ Kinman (08:53.762) And I've always liked doing hard things, you know, because I'm just one of those, tell me I can't do it, well, I'll show you. Yeah, yeah. So again, I was a troubled child. I made my parents crazy and I'm sure I my husband crazy and make people crazy around me. But it's, you know, so all that to say, if people do come up to me and say, dah, dah, dah. Lyric Kinard (08:56.261) Hooray! Lyric Kinard (09:00.407) I'm going to prove you wrong. And also, it's enjoyable. MJ Kinman (09:15.854) And I'm like, no, no, the fear is real. The fear is real. You just have to act as if, as if. And then eventually you act as if into the state of being. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (09:22.927) You Lyric Kinard (09:27.277) It is. I mean, I kind of don't like the phrase, it till you make it, but it's so effective in practice. You you, you pretend you are the person that you want to be, or you act as though you're competent and you come across that way and you learn it through doing it. You can't learn anything without doing it. So. You know, it's basically just a form of practice. MJ Kinman (09:59.01) Yes, exactly. There's a whole, it's called rational emotive therapy, RET or something like that. It's actually a therapy modality of acting as if to, until you move into it and you gain the skills and you learn the lessons and then you're like, okay. yeah, we are. Lyric Kinard (10:03.822) Interesting. Lyric Kinard (10:15.383) And it's retraining that part of your brain that, actually, this situation does not require fear or anxiety. You know, it's teaching it new things. Tell us how your business, your, okay, so what did your teaching look like when you first started? And then give us the cliff note overview of how it has evolved and where it is now because MJ Kinman (10:22.4) Yes! Yes. Yes. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (10:44.417) I love watching teachers who are continually changing and evolving either because they just want to try a new thing or because they're testing and experimenting and continually changing the experiment. And then there are teachers who just know how they want to do it and that's what they do. And that is also, there's no wrong way to do this, but I want to hear your journey. MJ Kinman (11:10.776) Correct. Well, one of the things that I talked with my coach about was teaching. I literally, truly to the bottom of my heart said, well, what do I have to teach? Why would anybody want to listen to me? We went through and we made a list. And so I started talking about the technique that I use, the foundation paper piecing technique that I use, which isn't. paper piecing, it's traditional piecing using freezer paper as your template. It's very similar to what Cynthia England does with her beautiful, her quilts. And so for years I was doing that. And then I, you know, just exploring things and I'm a real geek, I love books, I'm surrounded by them in my home, just any place where I can get some inspiration. I'm like, hmm, I wonder if I could turn that into a class. Lyric Kinard (11:37.381) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (12:00.576) When I was doing research for some of the gemstones that I wanted to make in my art world, in my art quilts, I was running across stories about the people who interacted with these incredible gemstones, like the Hope Diamond and the Hooker Emerald and things like that. And these gems, they wink in and out of history. They show up and then they go away and then they show up again and they go away because people buy them, wear them, put them in a vault, die. Then they go to somebody else. Wear them, put them in a vault, that kind of thing. And so the history of some of these gems are just outrageous and the people are even more outrageous. And so I used that to create a new class called Diamonds and Drama Queens, or Dames and Diamonds. And also before that I did Lyric Kinard (12:32.293) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (12:44.773) Who were also drama queens. MJ Kinman (12:48.512) Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then when COVID hit, I started an online subscription program with a of a following from around the world, which was so cool about this. I made a pattern every month and a presentation to talk about the gem, talk about the history, et cetera. So I did that. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (13:06.691) Was that your first time teaching online during COVID? All right. MJ Kinman (13:10.188) Yeah, exactly. And again, thanks to Global Quilt Connection and the virtual teaching academy. I know I'm not saying that quite right, so you can help me. Lyric Kinard (13:20.037) Academy for Virtual Teaching, it's all good. Yeah, it's all good. MJ Kinman (13:22.156) That's right. got the aspects in there. I got the important parts of it. I just like, well, yeah, I can do this. And yes, you can do this. And so I did. So you guys gave me confidence to do that. I moved away from that only because making a pattern a month plus a whole presentation plus Zooms twice a month for it, I wasn't doing my own work and I wasn't doing other things. So after about two and a half years, I shuttered that and I miss it so much. So and then I started talking about color and started thinking about how to make quilts glow using saturation contrast and I started teaching that and through that process the universe sends you people to help you with that develop that and I was in Duka teaching for cherry wood fabrics and a beautiful woman named Andrea came into my class and she goes well you know there's this guy named Emmy Chevrolet and you know there's this and there's the Munsell the Munsell color theory and I'm like what? And so I started doing research on it and that's the subject of all of my classes now that I'm going to be teaching in 2026 and into 2027. And it's the subject of my new book that I spent all last year working on. So, you know, just stay curious. follow a lead, sometimes it goes places, sometimes it doesn't. But I'm telling you, this whole thing about color interaction just blew my mind. And I realized I've been quilting for 30 years, and I took art classes and nobody told me about this. Why not? Lyric Kinard (14:50.309) They're so sidetracked, real quick. Color, I first learned basic color theory in university in architecture school. And then looking at and realizing that just like any theory, there are different theories. Like color is so complex and beautiful and you can look at it and see it and use it in so many different ways that there are many, many, many. MJ Kinman (14:59.758) I'm sorry. Lyric Kinard (15:19.983) different kinds of color theory that will all teach you different things, all enable you to do different things. And so that had nothing to do with business stuff, but color is so amazing. I'm right with you. MJ Kinman (15:30.83) What did Einstein say? Einstein said he could spend his whole color is light. And Einstein said I could spend my whole life just learning about light. And it's true. And we don't know everything. We know this much about a hope like a planet's worth. So new things are coming out all the time. So stay pay attention. Stay tuned. Okay, sorry. I'm getting conversational cul-de-sac. Lyric Kinard (15:37.004) Exactly. now. Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (15:49.349) Right? It's beautiful. No, we love it. That's what we do here. It spices it up. You add a little bit of this and a little bit of that and it just tastes so yummy. So are you teaching online at all right now? Of course. What does that look like now? MJ Kinman (16:00.962) Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes. it's mostly lectures, a lot of lectures. I do teach a couple of technique classes online and that's a lot of fun. I really enjoy that. For my color theory, I haven't quite gotten it online yet only because it's so intense and I like to get up there and color looks different. Lyric Kinard (16:12.868) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (16:31.53) on screen versus through cameras and everybody sees things differently. So I'm not quite sure I'm ready to do that yet. I'm not as confident. So I'm doing all of those in person basically, but I do the lecture online. I love teaching online. Lyric Kinard (16:32.463) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (16:42.692) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (16:51.246) I first got very nervous about it and scared. like, what if my technology just fritzes? And I realized, is technology. It doesn't care who you are. It's going to fritz whether it wants to or not. It's going to fritz for a brand new one, or it's going to fritz for somebody like Lyric who is the master of it. when... What? Lyric Kinard (17:04.197) whether you want it to or not for sure. Absolutely. You know what's hilarious? I teach this. I think I have the worst tech gremlins on the planet. So the main thing I teach is, chill, here's plan B, C, and D for how to make this thing work when plan A doesn't. MJ Kinman (17:18.286) Yeah. MJ Kinman (17:27.118) Exactly. And that goes right to what I was wanting to say in terms of with technology, you have to realize the goal is not perfection, it's flexibility. It's fluidity. We're more than flexible. We're fluid. Lyric Kinard (17:36.962) Absolutely. Yeah, and you know people that we work with, we are creatives and we are reaching students who want to be that. They either, and you know, they come in the full variety, the full range of, I'm absolutely terrified, people told me I was terrible and couldn't draw and therefore I am not creative, to f- full on, they'll just completely go rogue, which I love. I give all my students permission to go rogue at the very beginning of every class. You know, your time, do whatever you want. I'm here for whenever you need me. But they have the full range of fear to confidence with their creativity and you're building their love, that spark, that joy. And so they're not concerned with the technology. They are here. MJ Kinman (18:16.782) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (18:35.813) for you, they are here for that joy and however we can get it to them. you you and I have both been teaching online. I've been, know, let modem days for me, but something always goes wrong. And I have never once, never once, never once had people come to me and say, that was the worst thing on the planet because your technology blipped, right? Because we figured it out, even if it's more than a blip. MJ Kinman (18:49.965) yeah. Lyric Kinard (19:06.477) We figure it out and people are willing to be patient because that's not what we care about. We care about the creativity and the art that we're sharing. MJ Kinman (19:13.154) That's right. That's right. and the relationship between the teacher and the student. If you respect your students and if you're saying, you know, people will say all the technology gremlins, but if you have that connection with your students, they're going to, it's very forgiving. The other thing I love about teaching online is that people are usually in their safe space. They're in their quilt studio. And so they're already surrounded by the things that they know and they love and that they're excited. So they bring to that a freedom, a level of relaxation. Lyric Kinard (19:19.139) Yes. MJ Kinman (19:46.4) that you don't always get in the classroom because there's new people, there's a new space and I don't know what maybe I don't have all my tech my my my tools. Lyric Kinard (19:56.247) and never have the right materials. Never have all the right materials. You're always sitting there thinking, that one tube of paint I didn't bring, or that one brush, or that one piece of fabric that would be perfect there and I don't have it. MJ Kinman (20:09.826) Yeah, yeah. So I encourage, one, people share when I'm in in-person classes. so with online classes, it's almost, people are already in kind of a state of, huh, okay, you I got this. And they can turn their camera off if they don't want people to look at them, right? And that's good. I think it's very safe. Lyric Kinard (20:23.503) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (20:27.887) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (20:30.782) And it's just a real honor that people are inviting you into their quilt studio as an online teacher to help them. And again, like you, when you give them a sense of, we're here to play, we're here to choose joy. For me, we don't play enough, I don't play enough. So that's the time to play. And when they're in their safe space with the door shut and they can dance and sing and scoot and curse and whatever they need to do to get that creativity out there, do it baby, do it. Lyric Kinard (21:02.135) Mm-hmm, absolutely. So the evolution of the form of your teaching. you mentioned that you were, that you finished a new book and you have always created since the beginning, I think. I mean, you've, you're a quilter, you create these beautiful quilts and now you have patterns, you have a book, you have merchandise that goes along with it. So you have, Tell me all the income diversification that you have that are parts of your business and how they work together. MJ Kinman (21:39.597) Sure, sure. Well, teaching is a big one, and that's become more and more of a foundation for my... for what I'm doing. I started out with patterns with my Burstone series. I have a series of 12 Burstones, traditional and then the non-traditional Burstones, because I only do faceted gems, not cabochons, which, you know, like opals, I don't do those. So I had to come up with another one. So, and then over time was doing more, doing larger pieces, larger patterns, and then decided to kit them. And so I've got fabric coming in and you know what? I've been doing that since 2017, Lyric Kinard (21:49.38) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (21:57.925) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (22:16.065) 2018 what is that that's five six seven eight years and I don't know if I want to do that much anymore I never really wanted to become a quilt shop where I was folding patterns on stuffing patterns and cutting Fabric and and folding it and all of that because you know it's been two years Maybe more than two years since I've sat in front of my Bernina and made a quilt for me. It's been that long and that's Lyric Kinard (22:26.661) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (22:40.963) Yeah, that is one thing to really keep in mind. If you have merchandise that involves time sourcing, ordering, preparing, you have to order and figure out packaging, and then you have to package it up. have to pay it, you have to be online and like pay attention when orders come in and actually get them shipped out in a reasonable amount of time. Although, hey friends, MJ Kinman (23:06.104) Great. Lyric Kinard (23:08.217) Do not expect independent business owners to ship things within an hour of when your order is, please, you know. You know, we're real people. People will write me and say, you know, you need to tell your team. It's just me. It's just me. All the monkeys, right? And storage. MJ Kinman (23:14.2) Thank you. MJ Kinman (23:25.198) I know we're one woman circuses here, right? Complete with flying monkeys. So to keep all those plates going is yeah. And you have children or you, you know, I don't know. Maybe all your. Lyric Kinard (23:33.477) No I don't anymore! They are all out of the house! It's- I adore my kids but I am having so much fun. Yeah, they're all gone. Yeah. Yeah. MJ Kinman (23:40.45) Good job, mama. Five, right? I have zero and I still complain. It's like, don't complain, MJ. People do this and they have five children. Lyric Kinard (23:48.133) Well, you only do a tiny bit of stuff when you have five children. But back to merchandise, all of these things suck up your time. But they can be a big moneymaker. So it's up to you. And also you can hire somebody to do stuff. There are actually companies, MJ, that will make your kits for you and source them and do all of the fulfillment and shipping. So you can still have kits attached to your patterns and stuff. MJ Kinman (23:52.449) MJ Kinman (23:55.917) Yes. MJ Kinman (24:01.301) Yes. huge! MJ Kinman (24:17.357) Yeah, I've been exploring that a little bit putting a toe in that water and just recently I had an offer to do that and we were just way too far apart on price. I'm like, I cannot have, I won't offer my customers a yard of fabric for that price. Not gonna do it. I wouldn't pay it. So I'm not gonna ask my customers to pay it. So, you know, it's like this. I have to weigh it in my heart. And right now the book, Lyric Kinard (24:17.796) You don't have to deal with it. Lyric Kinard (24:27.301) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (24:33.028) Hehe. MJ Kinman (24:43.381) is a big deal for me. so I really kind of focus on that. there it is. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (24:45.381) All right, tell us more. Tell us more about the book. Like, is it with a publisher? Is it self-published? Tell us about the process, because this is, I think a lot of people dream of writing a book, right? But we don't understand a lot of, like when I wrote my book, it was like birthing a baby, right? It's nine months of intensity. MJ Kinman (24:53.761) me. MJ Kinman (25:01.953) Yeah. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (25:14.245) And then it's still intense, you know, because the publishing world is not the same as it was decades ago when they did all the marketing for you. They expect the authors to do all the marketing. So it stays intense. And my friends, if you go with the publisher, you have to understand royalties and that you usually aren't writing a book for making money. MJ Kinman (25:44.301) That's true. That's true. Writing a book is not about making money. It's about kind of having a calling card to say, hey, you know, this is what I've done. And I'd to teach you about these things. It's almost as though it's an adjunct to teaching. I knew that going credibility. My first book came out in 2020. It was published by a very familiar name here in the quilt world. I pitched this latest book. Lyric Kinard (25:50.639) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (25:56.343) It is, and it establishes your authority in the field that you write on. Lyric Kinard (26:04.226) Yay! MJ Kinman (26:10.744) to them and they weren't that interested. And so I'm like, I'm going to do it anyway, because there's a lot of interest out there. I want to do it. I almost did it for me. And I'm like, again, Lyric Kinard (26:19.012) Yeah, absolutely. MJ Kinman (26:22.134) I wrote requirements and all sorts of things, a lot of technical writing as a project manager. So I wasn't afraid of that process. But, you know, and I like cutting things down, bringing things down into very manageable chunks. Maybe that's why I like teaching. It's OK, here's this concept. Let's expound on that. Here's this concept. And now let's bring this all together. And that's kind of what I did with this book. There's specific chapters and then it comes all together. Lyric Kinard (26:32.549) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (26:52.047) I am lucky that the universe brought me an editor. I was at QuiltCon last year in Phoenix and I did a lecture on the magic of color interaction and this woman came up to me and said, are you working with an editor? And I'm like, no, but I need one. She goes, well, I'm here. She's fabulous. And so, you know, either you go out and look for them or they come to you and being open to those possibilities I think is a big part of success. Lyric Kinard (27:20.037) Alright, and here's the thing about self-publishing especially. Get an editor, please, please, please, please. Get an editor. Get somebody who knows layout, who knows all the things, who can catch all the things that you're too close to get to. It's worth the investment. MJ Kinman (27:30.155) Yeah. MJ Kinman (27:39.534) Yeah, yes, worth the investment because you want it to look good out there. It's your calling card. And so yeah, I'm glad I did it. What do I want to say? It was hard. It was hard, but I love doing hard things. And so I kind of missed the fact that it's done and the draw. So that's me. What is it? when I'm in the middle of everything, I'm like, and then when you're done, you're like, that was fun. Lyric Kinard (27:46.885) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (27:57.975) You Lyric Kinard (28:06.053) What did I say about birthing a baby? People say you don't remember and they're lying. They're totally lying about that. No, no, remember every hard part, but it's worth it. MJ Kinman (28:09.217) Do you MJ Kinman (28:19.277) That's all right. MJ Kinman (28:26.093) Yeah, so you asked about the merch. I love the merch. It is a great income. When you tell your story and when you're out there teaching and you've got your stuff over on the table, people wander over and they buy. Sometimes they buy a lot and sometimes they don't buy anything. And so the other thing is you're shipping this stuff back and forth. And that can be hard too. Lyric Kinard (28:45.765) When you're going in person, do you do any sales when you're teaching online? How does that work for you? How do you pitch it? How do they buy? Tell me about it. MJ Kinman (28:53.067) Yes, yes, yeah. MJ Kinman (28:58.507) Yeah, I have an online shop. So that's where my book is, that's where all my patterns are, et cetera. And to encourage people, sometimes I give them a discount code, say, you for this class, this is your code, know, 10 % off, 15 % off, what have you. So I do sell merch online. Lyric Kinard (29:02.031) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (29:19.439) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (29:20.237) It's different when you're in person because they're a captive audience and they're looking at it every day. Every second they're in class. So you do, I think I sell a little more in class, but it is very much worth it when you're online too, when you're teaching online. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (29:26.063) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (29:34.743) Absolutely. Some of the things I do, for instance, when I'm giving online lectures, I have a portraiture lecture and I have an online playful portraiture course. And sometimes I'm also teaching that for them and it's in person as well. But at the end of the lecture, it's, and if you're really interested in this, we touched on this little bit and this little bit, but if you want to actually make your own, I have an online course, here's a QR code up on the screen for tonight only, there is this discount only for you. So I put that time limit on, I'll also put the link in the chat and if I have, if the guild that's hired me, whoever has hired me has access, I'll also send them a quick note and maybe for one day after the lecture I'll say send them this. this link, this code, they can have access to this class for this discount for this day only. So you can tie them together and bump them up that they feed on each other. And people who get your book, they're going to be like, we want to have her come teach. Or people who have your come teach are going to say, there's a book about this? I want to take that home with me. So it's lovely how the lifetime value of your customer increases when you have merchandise. MJ Kinman (30:53.079) Yeah. Lyric Kinard (31:00.125) and online and or in person, know, as many diversification streams as you can have for your income, you know, it's a good thing. MJ Kinman (31:09.151) One of the income streams that I haven't really pursued as much as I want to, and I know the Academy for Virtual Teaching is going to help me with this, is to have online, on-demand classes. As opposed to just teaching live, but having them, videos out there along with materials and that kind of thing. It's just a matter of time and money. And I'm thinking that I've gotten through the patterns and I've done that. I think I'm done with that. So maybe breaking news, maybe I'm not going to be doing patterns much more. Lyric Kinard (31:18.565) You MJ Kinman (31:39.105) any longer. They do, don't they? Yeah. And then doing more teaching online and things of that nature, more civil longs. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (31:39.631) Patterns live forever though, you know. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (31:50.443) whatever your heart calls to next, right? So some people like to really, really plan out. I like to, and in the academy, I do this with people, know, what's your big, hairy, scary North Star goal, you know, and what's a baby step in that direction. But there's always the possibility of, well, maybe you get up to this first peak and you know the summit's way over there, but you see something over there that you MJ Kinman (31:55.149) Bye. Lyric Kinard (32:20.335) didn't have a view of before that you didn't know existed, it's okay to change your path. It's okay to go where you go. I love that there are different ways for everybody to run a business and to build a business. MJ Kinman (32:24.589) exactly. MJ Kinman (32:34.785) Yeah, yeah. You you mentioned something, there's people who will do that for you. I am so done managing people. I did that all my life, working in teams. I'm so done. I mean, and people are like, this could, you know, you could do really big things. You could do this, you could do that, you could do this. I'm like, yeah, but then what about life? You know, I'm 63. I'm at the point now where it's like, you know, I really want to do this and I want to do that. And it has nothing to do with quilt making. You know, I want to go travel or I want to do, I want to learn to play improvisational jazz on the piano. Lyric Kinard (32:57.829) Hmm. Lyric Kinard (33:12.855) we'll get together, I'm learning jazz bass. Yeah, let's do it. I'm terrible. Someday it won't be terrible. MJ Kinman (33:16.418) how fun! my gosh! my gosh, how fun! Yeah, you are, I, that's really, how long have you been doing that? my goodness. Lyric Kinard (33:27.531) A year. Well, play French horn, I always have, and I play with a symphony and I have health issues that are making me lose my chops. So I'm picking up something else to give me that same joy, that same, know, for me, it is the one thing I do where my brain can't do a million other things at the same time. So it's so soothing. So playing Rage Against the Machine and I'm going, this is soothing for my brain. MJ Kinman (33:52.524) meditate. you Lyric Kinard (33:57.285) But that was way up. No, it wasn't off track. So one of the things one of the coaches told me was instead of, because I'm a serial entrepreneur, ADD, I have a million ideas that I want to do. And he said, back up this one idea you're really passionate about, focus on it, and then get a hobby. Get a hobby to fulfill that other, you have to be doing new things all the time. And focus on this one thing, at least till you get it working or until you don't love it anymore, right? MJ Kinman (34:33.358) Exactly. And you know, you can have a million ideas and it's like, I have to do all of them. No, you don't. You don't. You don't. have to. You don't have to do anything if you don't want to. Lyric Kinard (34:38.775) Not at once. Yeah. MJ Kinman (34:44.159) So all that to say, and I just love sitting out on my front porch during the afternoon and listening to the birds and reading, sipping some coffee in the morning. I love those moments. And when they're interrupted by thoughts of, I need to cut another 10 kits, or I need to do more social media, or blah, blah. And I'm kind of over that because my social media, my... Lyric Kinard (34:49.381) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (35:13.069) I don't know I should say this or not, but my Facebook account, my personal private one, which my business, it has been hacked. And Facebook isn't doing anything about it. I'm just sending email after email after email to this one email address and yeah, so. Lyric Kinard (35:25.431) Yeah, no. Okay, so I will go on this mini side tangent because it's really important for us as we try to reach new students. We don't own social media. You don't own Facebook. You don't own Instagram. You don't own any of those. They own your content. They can do whatever. They can make it disappear. They cannot care when it disappears. However, YouTube is a search engine. YouTube is evergreen. YouTube is the fastest growing social media, under 35, that is the highest, that's where all the under 35 people spend the vast majority of their time. And if you're going to do any trying to find an organic audience, for creative makers, YouTube is absolutely it. And just, and. MJ Kinman (36:20.013) Okay? Lyric Kinard (36:23.075) By the way, the Academy has a glass coming up on YouTube. I want you all to go check it out. I'm not teaching this one because I need to learn more about YouTube. We have a fantastic, amazing, phenomenal coach that is offering it. And it's going to be unbelievably phenomenal. MJ Kinman (36:28.109) We'll go to. MJ Kinman (36:43.725) Well, that's probably where I'm going to go next, because I've had it. I've had it with the whole, yeah, the meta world. So all that to say, you know, it's all unspooling, unwinding, evolving, playing. Lyric Kinard (36:54.82) Mm-hmm. And weaving and coming back together and knitting into something new. know, this lifeline, this existence we have as we come into contact with other people, as we as teachers come into contact with our students and everybody affects each other's lives. And the things you do, the things creatives do when they affect other people's lives in the classroom is creating beauty, creating goodness. MJ Kinman (37:25.739) Yes, joy. Lyric Kinard (37:28.293) creating something in the world that wasn't there before, right? It's, you know, we, the world can be absolutely insane. And what we do puts a bubble around it for a moment or breaks through, you know, you can say things with art that you can't say in other ways, you know, so. MJ Kinman (37:35.895) Yeah. Yeah. MJ Kinman (37:56.621) Yeah, agreed. Lyric Kinard (37:58.553) You know, never ever, you or me or anybody who teaches creativity, never think it's frivolous. It's vital. I mean, when the world is insane, this is more important than anything. MJ Kinman (38:06.903) Right? It's vital. Exactly. I 100 % agree. You we're all creators. Even people say, well, I'm not an artist or I don't do this. We're all creators. We all have our creations and your creations can be for the good or they can be for the evil or for not good. Lyric Kinard (38:29.817) you can build or you can tear down. And what is it that you want to build? MJ Kinman (38:31.553) Yeah, exactly. MJ Kinman (38:35.906) Yeah. And you know, what goes around comes around. I'm a big believer in what you put into the world, it's going to come back to you. So, and I had to learn that lesson over and over over over over again. So anyway. Lyric Kinard (38:49.805) Yeah, you're not making people cry in meetings anymore, MJ. It's a whole different world. MJ Kinman (38:58.686) Yeah, there are stories. well. Lyric Kinard (39:00.899) Yeah. And I love that you have come to the place where you're like, I know what I want and it's enough. And people can tell you, you should want more, have more. And you're like, I'm good. I'm good. I'm satisfied with what is coming with. We talked a little bit before about, you know, it's okay that you have no idea what's coming up next. That's a valid way to be. MJ Kinman (39:13.441) good right now. MJ Kinman (39:29.293) Don't you think so? Because I think there's so much out there that we can't even conceive of. And to allow the possibility that magic will come into your life or amazing things will come into your life, growth will come into your life, I think is critical. It's that openness, it's the allowing. the saying yes to your passion and stepping in. Like I said, the universe says, finally I can work with you and bring you things that are gonna challenge you, make you insane, make you joyful, et cetera. Live your life and that's what we're here for. yeah, this is all just part of the big picture. So I think you asked what's next for me as we were kind of talking about how we were gonna structure this conversation is I think I'm probably gonna Lyric Kinard (39:48.909) Absolutely. Lyric Kinard (40:01.389) Mm-hmm. Yeah. MJ Kinman (40:18.677) to do fewer patterns and try to find someone to do the kits for me. I want to teach more online. I want to do, you know, I want to teach in person more online. teach in person as well. And then I also want to get back to my own art and really focus on perhaps, I'm working on a commission now. I got a commission just out of the blue from Kentucky State Parks. So I'm going to be doing a big, she's 12 feet wide and about four feet tall. Yeah. She's going to have a whole bunch of pieces in her. She's a lance. She's not necessarily a diamond. She's a faceted landscape of Lake Berkeley. Lyric Kinard (40:40.804) Woo hoo! Lyric Kinard (40:45.581) Wow. Wow. MJ Kinman (40:59.104) We have two beautiful lakes that were dammed by the TVA, the Tennessee Valley Authority, and they're some of the largest man-made lakes in the world. And they're absolutely gorgeous. Down near Paducah, course, Quilt City, USA. So they knew they wanted to have a quilt there and they called me. And so I'm working on that and that's a lot of fun. mean, deadlines are good for me in that it makes me do stuff. I guess I need to learn to put deadlines on myself or other work for me, you know? So like maybe I'm gonna say I wanna do an exhibit. Lyric Kinard (41:31.781) Yeah, some of us are better at that than others. I am not, which is why I have students, which is why when I have a new class, I'm like, here, I have a new class registered for it. And then I actually have to make it, right? It's a valid way. We actually have a workshop for that in the academy too, to teach people how to market test and get it all ready and register students before you build a single part of the course. MJ Kinman (41:59.104) Isn't that great? Lyric Kinard (42:00.119) Yeah, there's all different ways to make it work. But having accountability, having a community to do this in is a way to give yourself a deadline and also be accountable to somebody else, right? So next deadline, you tell me what it is you want to do. And I'm going to send you an email and say, yeah, yeah, have you done it? MJ Kinman (42:02.475) Mm-hmm. Yeah. MJ Kinman (42:19.137) Yes, exactly. MJ Kinman (42:25.833) Yeah. Yeah, it's the Smithsonian series. I need to get at least six quilts for the Smithsonian. This quilt in front of the book is a Smithsonian diamond, or gem. It's the Whitney Flame Topaz. She's about this big. She's incredibly saturated. She lives in the Hall of Gems at the Smithsonian, the National Museum of Natural History. Excuse me. And she's just next door to the Hope Diamond. So, you know. Lyric Kinard (42:36.771) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (42:40.302) Excellent. Lyric Kinard (42:51.461) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (42:57.177) I love how you've anthropomorphized that word. MJ Kinman (42:59.425) Yeah. yeah, I know. I love that word, but I hate saying it. Yeah. Yeah, all my diamonds are girls. They're divas, right? I call them she's. Yeah. Lyric Kinard (43:07.471) There you go. Good, good. Yeah, well, I can't wait to see what comes up next. MJ, before we go, I want to spring a question on you and you tell me what is the last thing you made. MJ Kinman (43:13.313) Thank you. MJ Kinman (43:22.795) dinner last night. Lyric Kinard (43:24.08) Perfect. What was it? Was it delicious or easy? And delicious. MJ Kinman (43:27.807) It was easy. was three degrees here. It was meatloaf and baked potatoes. Yep, that's it. Yeah, that's the last thing. And I enjoy learning to enjoy cooking. So in terms of the last thing I made for quilts, no, the last thing I made was dinner. Yeah, okay. Lyric Kinard (43:34.927) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (43:43.919) You don't have to worry about, yeah, perfect, perfect, perfect answer. We are, you know, this will come out in several weeks from when we're recording it, but you and I are both in the American South, having just had ice storms and ridiculous temperatures that we are not used to, right? Yeah. So you made meatloaf, my husband. MJ Kinman (44:07.371) Not used to, no. Lyric Kinard (44:10.489) got all excited about having an ice storm. So we have like three full propane tanks for the grill. We could probably feed the entire neighborhood. And he made brisket. MJ Kinman (44:17.409) There you go. So what was the last thing? yum. Well, what was the last thing you made, dear Lyric? Lyric Kinard (44:23.805) The last thing I made was notes in my chocolate tasting notebook about my, like that's my other hobby is finding independent made chocolates. So I brought home like five different chocolate bars from five different countries from finding the most amazing chocolate store. And this one is made in the United Arab Emirates. And it's an orange cinnamon and it's fabulous. So I was making notes. Right? And I have six of these chocolate tasting journals filled. It's a good hobby. MJ, it has been. MJ Kinman (44:55.457) Now that's... MJ Kinman (45:00.609) That's a cool hobby. That's a cool hobby. Yeah. Yeah. MJ Kinman (45:12.749) Truly amazing lyric. I love it. I love it. Lyric Kinard (45:19.135) So much fun to be able to see your face again and to talk to you. Where can people find you online? MJ Kinman (45:20.233) Yes! MJ Kinman (45:25.649) my name, MJKidman.com. That is where you'll find examples of my quilts. That's where you will find a blog that I need to get started on the blog again. And then my online shop, my online shop. Lyric Kinard (45:37.217) Mm-hmm. And what is the name of your new book? MJ Kinman (45:42.283) It's called Crack the Color Code. Add drama to your designs using the secrets of color interaction. And it's all about how color, it, Joseph Albers said, you know, the great artist educator of the 20th century. Lyric Kinard (45:50.533) final crack the color code. love it. Lyric Kinard (45:58.851) Yeah, yeah, he's the one that I studied from in college, yes. MJ Kinman (46:03.841) He said color deceives continuously. I love that. It's not me, it's color. Actually, it's our brain on color. When you have two colors... Lyric Kinard (46:06.072) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (46:11.941) Mm-hmm. MJ Kinman (46:11.979) come together, your brain tries to make them at the same time as different as possible to identify it. It's a survival instinct and it does it in three ways. It does it based on the features of color, hue, value and saturation. And once you understand how our brain tries to differentiate colors and it does weird things to literally can change a color simply by pairing it with another. And I have that in my. Lyric Kinard (46:31.236) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (46:35.113) you would not believe the amazing color studies that we had to do, like change colors by putting, and the way I teach color is kindergarten level, what you're, I mean, like literally kindergarten level. So it's all about relationships, our relationships, color and colors, relationships to each other. But we will have links to all of these in our show notes. I encourage you all to go look. I want your book. So I'm going to order one. MJ Kinman (47:03.105) will send you a book. Okay. Lyric Kinard (47:04.621) I am going to order one and, and you know, people let's learn from these conversations with each other. Let's. find the same kind of joy that you have found MJ in doing what you've been doing. MJ Kinman (47:23.799) finding what I'm finding. It's a process. So, but thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. It's always good to talk to you. You're just, we always kind of get right down into it, right? Or the small talk from right into it. Thank you. Lyric Kinard (47:26.255) Mm-hmm. Lyric Kinard (47:33.987) Right? Yeah, it's a pleasure to be with you and thank you again. Take care, friends. MJ Kinman (47:41.185) Be well.